The matter of “Who censored Saga #12?” has been termed a fiasco by some, and that’s probably the right word. While I certainly didn’t foresee the shocking swerve that saw comiXology revealed as the actual entity that thought those two tiny BJ/bukakke panels weren’t Apple-friendly, in private conversations yesterday, I had begun to suspect that everything didn’t add up. WHY had Apple ejected SAGA #12 when so much worse had been seen in previous issues? Was it new guidelines? A new inspector? Was someone having a bad day?

While we will never know—and probably wouldn’t want to know—what went on behind closed doors, we can make some educated guesses. Was Apple aware they had been tarred with the wrong brush? A couple of tweets from the Macworld account (which is a magazine about Macs, not an official Mac account) suggest that Apple did know and wanted the record set straight:


Soon after ComiXology and BKV’s official statements were released Image Comics also had an official statement:

We’re pleased to update everyone that SAGA #12, written by Brian K. Vaughan and art by Fiona Staples, is now available in the Image Comics iOS application and available for purchase and your reading enjoyment.  

Additionally, SEX #1, the hit new comic from writer Joe Casey and art by Piotr Kowalski, which was released in March and previously unavailable to iOS users, is also now available for you purchase and enjoy in the privacy of your home, or anywhere your iPad takes you.

And as if that wasn’t enough, one of our favorite mini-series from back in 2007, XXXOMBIES, written by Rick Remender with art by Kieron Dwyer and covers by Tony Moore, is also now available for purchase and your sick, sick reading enjoyment.

All three series as well hundreds of others can be purchased in the Image Comics digital comics web store or in the Image Comics iOS application.

The plot thickens. Did Apple ever reject SEX #1 and XXXOMBIES? No one we contacted would comment on the matter, but you can draw your own conclusions here.

Meanwhile, on Twitter, a few shops had vowed to stop selling SAGA #12. Our own frequent commenter Brian Jacoby of Secret Headquarters in FL tweeted:

which led to a long Twitter argument about why he had been okay with selling the book up until now and ended with

In answer to this, the CBLDF had a very very important post on why carrying Saga #12 wouldn’t get you thrown into jail:

That said, it’s important to note that while the images are sexually explicit, they and the issue that contains them are protected by the First Amendment. Retailers have a right to sell Saga #12, readers have a right to possess it, and the creators and publisher had the right to create it. For Saga #12 to be unprotected by the First Amendment, it would need to be found legally obscene — an outcome that is highly unlikely.

Meanwhile, after the big reveal, artist Fiona Staples was a bit nonplussed:


The tweet is in response to David Brothers’ quick take on the matter which raised most of the questions you’re all probably thinking right now:

5. The criticisms that were previously aimed at Apple should now be turned toward ComiXology — who on their staff is in charge of content approvals? What are they using as a guide? Do they have the best interests of the comics industry at heart? If no, should they?


Comics Alliance’s Andy Khouri has a long, cogent take on most of the story that suggests—as I sorta did yesterday morning—that the real story would turn out to be the gatekeepers again:

Beneath the surface of the Saga fiasco lies the more important questions for the digital comics scene going forward: who are the gatekeepers, and what do they care about? In my experience in digital media, guidelines with respect to sexual content are extremely strict not so much because of morality but because of liability. Retailers, television networks, websites and application developers care less about sex or anything having to do with human anatomy (except for violence, of course) than they do about somebody’s parents flipping out and suing them, so consequently anything “flagged” on sites like Facebook or apps like Instagram or content websites or products in digital marketplaces like Apple’s App Store is zapped just as a matter of course — often without even inspecting the offending material to make sure it’s in violation of anything! C.Y.A. is the order of the day.

But the Saga #12 situation complicates that gatekeeper question in a profound way, because it’s confirmed that ComiXology has changed its position from that of a pure retailer to a kind of content curator. To wit, we can infer that someone at ComiXology judged that graphic heterosexual intercourse in an earlier issue of Saga would meet with Apple’s approval, but that graphic oral sex between men would not. There are many possible implications built into that decision, but the ultimate result was that ComiXology was wrong and the company’s second-guessing of Apple’s admittedly oblique guidelines tipped the first domino in this embarrassing and painful story.

In the end, as far as we know, the winners here are BKV and Fiona Staples—SAGA #12 is surely going to sell a gazillion more copies that it would have before the controversy. The big loser is comiXology, and it gives me no joy to say that, obviously. Just a few nights ago, I co-hosted a party thrown by comiXology as a MoCCA wrap-up, and I told several people that the reason I felt comfortable teaming up with comiXology—despite the suspicious way they are viewed by some—is that everyone I know there is an upfront, honorable person. In the past I’ve seen co-owner David Steinberger deal quickly and directly with controversies, and they’ve been as transparent as possible most of the time. Does L’Affaire Saga change my opinion of the company? Not entirely–it’s probably a result of growing very big and very fast and perhaps not really having a corporate philosophy set up to handle these kinds of things.

It’s just not all black and white. Mark Waid jumped in with a timeline and a defense of comiXology:

Following my urge to continue ignoring my deadlines, I re-read the Terms of Service that I’d signed between Thrillbent and Comixology, paying particular attention to the age-rating guidelines. Hey, look. There, under the qualifiers defining what material cannot be published through apps but only through the web, is this one: “Explicit pornographic depiction of sexual activity or genitalia.” Okay, call me an old biddy, but I could make a reasonable case that an illustration of gang-bang bukkake could be interpreted as “explicitly pornographic.” And it occurred to me that maybe this was more the issue than homosexuality.

The SAGA #12 Fiasco is going to get a lot of people talking about content and gatekeepers and who should carry what. I’ll leave you with a few bullet points of my own:

• Sure, comiXology is a near monopoly in the digital space—like Diamond in the physical. And like Diamond, it is mostly a benign monopoly. While this was not a shining hour for them, if they learn from their mistakes and move forward, good will come of all of it.

• It is still better to buy from the webstore than through Apple apps, because creators and publishers get a bigger piece of the digital pie.

• Something that comiXology and Apple and everyone else need to understand: kids today don’t care about ownership, they care about access. They grew up in a world where everything is available free all the time, legally or not. While there are legit content issues for any distributor, not carrying things is ultimately going to threw readers back into the arms of bit torrent, or whatever the bit torrent of the moment is. This is a reality that everyone has to face.


  1. The Beat says ‘WHY had Apple ejected Saga #12 when so much wore had been seen in previous issues? Was it new guidelines? A new inspector? Was someone having a bad day?’

    Errr, is The Beat being particularly stupid? Apple did not reject Saga # 12 as Comixolgy never submitted it. Just stop trying to blame Apple for something it didn’t do.

  2. There are no digital gatekeepers. If you don’t give the people WHAT they want the WAY they want it then they’ll just turn back to piracy.

  3. Nicolas, within the context of the article I read that as being the initial thought process and thread The Beat followed, before it was revealed Comixology was behind it.

  4. Nicholas – you’re quoting rhetorical questions The Beat Herself was asking to herself, as she looked over the story, and realised parts of it weren’t adding up correctly.

  5. A direct quote from my blog post that you link to:
    “I am not saying any of the above or below to defend or impugn Apple, Comixology, Brian Vaughan, Image, my Aunt Polly, your Cinemax subscription, or anyone or anything else in the known universe. I’m simply, as Comics’ Longtime Leading Authority On Mouthing Off Without Knowing All The Facts, fulfilling my karmic obligations to publicly separate information from hearsay when I am so able.”
    But by all means, continue your half-assed reporting, and good luck in your never-ending quest to find a villain and a conspiracy in all this!

  6. I thought the comic was still available through the website and you were still able to download it through your device. While I understand the convenience factor being a pain, the book was never not available at all through Comixology. Seem like a whole lot of nothing to me at the end of the day.

    And I still don’t understand why DC books aren’t available for purchase through the Comixology app through the Kindle Fire. This is still not been addressed in a couple of years now by DC, Amazon, or Comixology.

  7. DC Comics has its own app (with Vertigo Comics having a separate app) and iBooks sells single issues of those comics as well so it is a puzzler tha Vomixology doesn’t carry them. are Dark Horse Comics sold through Comixology?

  8. The biggest question I have is… what ARE the content guidelines now?

    Because if SAGA #12 (and #4 now that I look at it) is NOT in violation of Comixology’s content guidelines as written, then what exactly WOULD constitute a content violation?

    Note: I’m not advocating for content guidelines here. I AM advocating for clarity.

  9. The problem here is neither Comixology nor Apple. It’s the law.

    Imagine you’re running a company that has to make sure its content conforms to thousands of individual, potentially idiosyncratic interpretations of what is legally obscene–and not only that, but each of those interpretations has the potential to be recognized as legit by a court. Even if a given interpretation fails, an arrest leads to bad PR and $$$ in legal bills, if not for you than for your clients. Add to that the not insignificant risk of a sweeps-week driven news hit (“Apple of Sin: Kids love iPads–but do you know what’s really on the screen?”) and the ideal of an “extremely slim likelihood” of something violating the First Amendment flies straight out of your corner-office window.

    If you’re Apple, you respond to this by drawing up a catch-all terms-of-service standard for sexually explicit, one that gives you plausible deniability and sufficient grounds for removing anything even slightly risky. It also gives your clients an incentive to err on the side of rigorous self-regulation, both so they’ll remove potential problems early & also take the PR hit for excessive caution. In today’s law enforcement & PR climate, this isn’t cynical–it’s all but essential.

    Retailers, from Comixology to Secret Headquarters, have to keep similar concerns in mind. Comixology has the double-whammy of the laws + Apple’s TOS, where the first amendment is not a safe harbor. Secret Headquarters has to think of the zealous moralistic parent, reporter and undercover law enforcement. all of whom are acting from a perspective that reflexively sees lots of stuff that’s OK in NYC as an abomination unto God and a destroyer of the souls of innocent children.

    When advising a retailer, sure, a lawyer should note the Miller test & the ideal interpretation of obscenity law. Then she should tell her client to remember Jesus Castillo, who went to jail in Dallas for selling a comic book that folks outside Dallas considered not to be obscene, or, even more on point, the Georgia prosecution of Gordon Lee, which included a picture of a nude Picasso in a non-sexual situation. When a retailer decides not to sell a comic, it’s often not a questionable “business decision” based on conservative morality or unwarranted fear–it can be a prudent judgment based on the law as applied.

    Yes, the CBLDF helped defend these cases, in one case losing and in the other succeeding in getting the charges dropped after years of sustained, expensive and nerve-wracking legal attack. However–and here I guess our legal temperaments different–it seems to me that this experience warrants more than a letter downplaying the threat.

  10. Note: I’m not advocating for content guidelines here. I AM advocating for clarity.

    A major consequence of telling stories via pictures is that some pictured material is automatically considered adults-only, if not obscene. A person can argue that context is everything, that there is no perfect ratings system, and that readers should make their own judgments, but that’s not how commercial publishers sell their material. A naked woman can be drawn in a way that makes the nudity absolutely non-stimulating, but the reason will largely be the context of the scene. If Marvel and DC superheroines went around performing heroic acts nude, or just with their breasts exposed, the comics couldn’t be sold to minors. Drawing women as pin-ups makes putting the images in non-sexual contexts difficult.

    If someone wants to write sex scenes, he can do so in a prose story without causing problems for anyone. The reader always has to process what he’s reading. People see pictures, and react.


  11. Err, is Nicholas Winter being particularly stupid? The Beat didn’t say that Apple rejected Saga #12, just that such appeared to be the case BEFORE Comixology had been revealed to be the responsible party. Just read the entire article…or even the entire paragraph that you quoted here…and stop trying to blame The Beat for something it didn’t do.

  12. Dropping Saga hurts my heart. It’s one of the best comics out there. The best-selling book we’ve ever carried. I put a copy of #1 in the file of *every* subscriber we had when it came out. We have sold more than 40 copies of Vol. 1.

    When I heard the kerfuffle about iTunes dropping it because of gay sex, I assumed another (male) old flame of The Will had shown up and was *looking forward* to reading his story.

    I was not expecting pictures so explicit.

    It has been and continues to be our policy to not carry any material that is pornographic or “Adults Only” in nature. While Saga has had images in the past that came close to the line, they have not crossed over before. Think about it as the difference between Boogie Nights and Deep Throat. People can be naked and have sex and a movie is still rated R, but once you show penetration and ejaculation, it crosses into X or NC-17. We also don’t carry Alan Moore’s Lost Girls, Omaha the Cat Dancer, or other works that I personally really enjoy, do to the graphic sexual content.

    The key issue involved here is “Community Standards.” Our store is in the South, and while things are (arguably) better than they used to be, graphical sexual imagery is still something that locally is only sold (or rented) in stores that do not allow children.

    Not only does my store allow children, but our children’s section is quite large. In addition, my 9yo daughter is in the store 26 hours a week, every other week. I don’t just have to worry about an overzealous prosecutor or angry clergy, I have to worry about a potential *custody* battle and a Family Court judge.

    I support the CBLDF. I give them money every year, and have a collection box on my counter for customers to donate to them as well. I just don’t want to ever have use their services myself.

    Like I said above, I am very sad that I can’t carry this title any longer. I really love these characters and the story BKV and Fiona Staples are telling, and I will likely end up following them digitally myself (ugh, digital comics), but I can’t stock it anymore. The stakes are too high for me.

    P.S. The reason I stopped talking about it on Twitter? It’s hard to explain anything too complicated there in 140 characters. And also, it was New Comics Day! Who has time for a pointless internet fight on New Comics Day? Not me!

  13. I think Waid nailed it:
    “…But by all means, continue your half-assed reporting, and good luck in your never-ending quest to find a villain and a conspiracy in all this!”

  14. Brian Jacoby’s comment is spot on re community standards and custody issues. The unfortunate reality is that obscenity law is not about the First Amendment. It’s about tens of thousands of First Amendments.

  15. Accusing ComiXology of prudishness or homophobia is utter nonsense in this case. They never refused to sell Saga #12–the book went on sale on the website with all the others. They held it back from Apple because they thought *Apple* might have a problem with it, even though ultimately neither of them did.

    Did ComiXology make mistakes here? Absolutely, primarily in not communicating clearly what was going on. But suggesting they did something heinous is just prolonging the controversy-over-facts approach this entire story has suffered from.

  16. The real silly bit about this whole controversy is that the images in question are NOT the focus of the panels. They’re small icons on the screen of a character with a television for a head. I read the issue in question and did not even notice them, given that said character was apparently in peril of dying.

    The images and dialog that opened issue 11 were, IMHO, far more explicit.

    Indeed, I wonder what point putting the images on the screen of the television served to the story.

    Don’t get me wrong. I defend BKV and Fiona Staples right to put whatever they want into their comic. I just question if choosing to put an image of felatio in as a background detail served their comic and the story they were trying to tell. What should have been a goofy joke has instead put comics retailers like Comixology and Brian Jacoby in a difficult position.

    At least it got Saga some headlines.

  17. In case it wasn’t clear enough in what I wrote (and it wasn’t) I STILL think Comixology is the best digital distribution company out there and think they are going to do more great things.

    Also, was this a shining moment for internet journalism? No. I’m not going to take the blame for the Buzzfeed/Bleeding Coolization of the internet either, however. That ship has sailed. Anyone who wants to support longform journalism, the tip jar is at the top of the page.

    Also, if anyone can name the news outlets that DID NOT COVER THIS STORY UNTIL THEY HAD A STATEMENT FROM APPLE AND COMIXOLOGY please link to it so we can go read those sites exclusively from now on.

    Also, not too surprised about this, but it’s interesting that people are still obsessing about the ratings issue and not the bigger one about overall availability. If we ever talk about this story in the future, that will be the main impact.

  18. For me, the failure of the news sites including The Beat was not taking the needed step of seeing if Apple was selling Saga 12 on the day it goes on sale there. No need to contact Apple PR, just wait and see what happens. But no, the creator hollers censorship and the niche part of the Internet that reports on comics shouts loudly that The Big Bad Wolf is chasing granny. Oh wait — granny’s sleeping soundly.

  19. >> Both the other comic shops in Tallahassee carried the issue, and sold-out.>>

    Brian must have stock of the book he doesn’t feel he can put out for sale. Maybe he can offload it to them.


  20. Did you seriously just ask for a tip to report the news properly? You want a cookie for bothering to get your facts straight.

    The truth is that the blog sites like THE BEAT are what made this a controversy. And you reaped the pageviews and THEN have the audacity to ask for tips so that you can afford to do things right?

    This is a sad.

  21. The more I read about this whole issue (literally) the more justified I feel. And I even have Mark Waid looking at it the same way I and a few others did from the get go….from Waid’s piece above:

    There, under the qualifiers defining what material cannot be published through apps but only through the web, is this one: “Explicit pornographic depiction of sexual activity or genitalia.” Okay, call me an old biddy, but I could make a reasonable case that an illustration of gang-bang bukkake could be interpreted as “explicitly pornographic.” And it occurred to me that maybe this was more the issue than homosexuality…”

    I shall now reprint my first post from the original article on THE BEAT claiming that SAGA #12 HAD BEEN BANNED FOR GAY CONTENT…here are my words (4/9/13):

    “I think you guys are missing the obvious here….this is not about gay sex…its about overly explicit sex.
    No one can say for sure if the person receiving the “facial” is a man or a woman with short hair. What is certain is it is very explicit.
    Now, should Apple ban this and show extreme or explicit violence or sex in other forms? That’s for Apple to decide, its their company and their decision.
    But the base idea that it was “banned” because it was homosexual in nature is all wrong. That could be a long haired woman getting a face full of joy juice and they would have done the same thing…”

    I (and a very small, tiny, almost non-existent handful of others) went from there to make all kinds of WELL THOUGHT OUT, COMMON SENSE remarks about the situation but my guess is most everyone else wasn’t reading or following those….they were lighting their torches in preparation of storming the mountain top to get the monster (Read: some of us also call this process “a knee jerk reaction”)

    I’m feelin’ ya Raylan Givens…..I’m feelin’ ya.

  22. Scott Kurtz – the facts were straight, in so much as the ones that were available. What good do you think it would have done for The Beat to be the one news site that didn’t cover the story? Do you really think Bleeding Cool and others will think, well gee, maybe next time we won’t run a story until we get statements from everyone? 90% of comics news would disappear other than the PR releases. Not great reading, not great journalism either.

    News sites make mistakes and in this case they even apologise. No one wants a cookie, but equally yeah, no one is paying for this to be a super highbrow site either. Which is indeed a sad but there ya go.

    Also, continuing to beat Heidi into the ground after she takes the rap that few other sites are coming forward to do? Definitely a sad.

    Oh and it ain’t common sense in a homophobic world Thomas Wayne, it’s good fortune. Yay the one time we thought something was homophobic and it wasn’t! Start the party.

  23. Laura,
    There’s the problem with your argument – you AUTOMATICALLY assume that anything remotely in question of being anti-gay or homophobic requires a knee jerk reaction or a rise to quick anger. It doesn’t, and I don’t care how homophobic the world really is or isn’t. It’s called taking the time to make sure you think things out properly….

    Give it a try…

  24. Scott: I don’t do the Beat fulltime. It does not pay all of my living expenses and never has. I wish that wasn’t true, but it is, and it will not change in the near future or probably ever.

    If you want a full time, dedicated comics journalist, that person needs to be paid fulltime to do that. It is NOT unreasonable to ask to be paid to do work. The more money I can make from doing the Beat the more time I can devote to it. it’s THAT simple. I wish I had the traffic that paid for the site, but running links to new comics by Uno Morales doesn’t do that.

    BTW, if I had waited to post this story, do you know what would have happened? Bleeding Cool would have run it (as they did 10 minutes later) and everything else would have played out in EXACTLY the same way. EXACTLY.

    Everyone is mad that I didn’t wait around and ask Apple what happened. Apple is the ONE entity in this that has NOT made a public statement and I’m guessing they won’t.

    I wish they would. But Apple, Google, Amazon, Facebook and Microsoft tend to be the most unapproachable and enigmatic corporations of all. (has anyone EVER talked to a person at Google in a work related context? Anyone? Buehler?)

    Is Apple now sitting around feeling morose because they were tagged unfairly as censors? I dunno, Why don’t you ask Izneo?

    Like I said, I’m not claiming this was my finest hour, but I’m not going to climb up on the cross for the sins of the internet, either.

  25. In all honesty….that’s what homophobic types and racist types really need…just a minute of clarity, just a minute of “stop…think”. Why am I so filled with hate or animosity toward this person or persons?

    This is what we all need….

  26. Heidi, listen.
    It doesn’t matter what Bleeding Cool does. It certainly doesn’t excuse anything you do here at The Beat. And frankly I’m not moved by your lamenting that The Beat is not your full time job. If you don’t have the time or resources to report the news without mis-informing then you need to quit and let someone else do it.

    I didn’t go to journalism school, but all you had to do was report that Saga 12 went up, then was pulled. Apple and Comixology were not available for comment and that on twitter BKV said XYZ, so take that for what you will. And then headline it “Saga 12 pulled from Comixology for unknown reasons.”

    Are you telling me you don’t have the time or the resource to pull that off?

  27. I wonder if Scott Kurtz would still be taking the same tone if people got on his ass about trying to monetize PvP in any way, shape, or form. How DARE he try to make money and make a living on something that I’m used to receiving for free?

    Don’t blame Heidi, blame the people who will not read a proper and balanced reporting of events because the writer decided to wait. Blame Buzzfeed and Bleeding Cool for fostering and taking advantage of that, forcing everyone else to take speed over accuracy in order to get any type of payoff at all.

  28. Matt, I’m not arguing that Heidi shouldn’t monetize her work at The Beat. I wish she could make a shit ton of money doing it.

    But “I’m not getting paid” or “Someone else will do it” is not an excuse for bullshit reporting. If you’re going to report comics news, report it. Don’t invent it. Don’t sensationalize it.

  29. Whether other stores in a town sell the same item is not dispositive vis a vis the absence of risk, especially when a retailer’s prudential calculus includes such variables as custody, client base or neighborhood location. Once again, consider the Castillo case — he didn’t work at the only comic shop in Dallas with sexually explicit alt comics, yet that didn’t keep him from being arrested and convicted.

    My primary aim here is to note that the actions of all parties here were not irrational or irresponsible–there’s a legal framework that creates substantial risk. Rather than belittling people for trying to deal with a complex situation rife with vague definitions and inconsistently applied standards, we should show some empathy, since it may help us better understand the problem and develop more effective strategies.

  30. Scott: Uh what you wrote is SOOOOOOOO FAR from what actually happened that I’ve not sure you know what happened or the sequence of events or what I was supposed to be reporting on what it happened.

    If you read my initial report, it said that BKV had sent out a press release stating that he was told that Saga #12 WOULD NOT BE CARRIED ON IOS DEVICES because of two small panels of sex — which happened to be gay. There is nothing that was not factual in that report. BKV sent out a press release, SAGA #12 was not on an IOS device and there were two small panels of sex. AND I REPORTED THAT AND SHOWED THE PAGES. IN breaking news fashion, that was all that was known at the time. The next morning I added reports on what people had said and done. And the minute that Comixology’s apology came out I posted that with the exact same alacrity and went back and linked to this in my original story.

    All of that other stuff you have in your account happened after the initial PR or wasn’t even revealed. So I’m not sure what I “invented.” Did I use “gay sex” in my headline — yes I did. I’m not trying to say I took the high road but I wasn’t offroading in my ATV either.

    The one thing that I feel most guilty of is the one thing that no one has accused me of: BEING A FANGIRL FOR BKV. I hold Brian and his integrity in the highest esteem, and when he sends out a press release I believe that he knows what he is talking about. And I continue to hold Brian in the highest esteem—when the facts of the case came out, showing that WHAT HE BELIEVED AT THE TIME WAS NOT TRUE he owned up and apologized right away.

    I feel like the game of telephone is continuing here. At any rate, I am working on some follow ups that may satisfy you more. I hope so.

    OH YEAH AND ONE MORE THING: Scott, if you want the comics news internet that you desire (and deserve, I dare say) it is not going to happen for free.

  31. Laura,

    Thank you for proving my point…AGAIN….you took my words and ran with one sentence, out of context…and you are clearly outraged by what you read. What you didn’t do is understand the statement.
    Look at the sentence again…it doesn’t mean that I don’t care about the level of homophobia, it means that regardless of the degree of homophobia it makes sense to take a step back, look at the whole big picture before you immediately jump to a conclusion.
    Of course I care about how homophobic the world is….I wish it wasn’t that way at all.
    But you took a simple statement and ran with it as NEGATIVE before you took time to truly comprehend what the words meant….
    Seriously…stop doing that….I am assuming you are a smart individual…and you are obviously passionate and caring….but jumping the gun and pointing fingers or making assumptions out of context is so WRONG it isn’t even funny…
    Stop. Think. That’s all I ask. It will make your world a better place….it would make all our world’s a better place. It certainly wouldn’t have lead to all this discussion about SAGA # 12.
    Like I said in an earlier post…if people filled with hate stopped for a minute and really thought “why”? Why do I feel this way they’d probably come to the realization that what they really hate is their own feelings – not a person, a people or a cause. They’d realize that their hate was taught or learned for no better reason than tradition or years of daily habitualization.

    Let’s hope we all take time to stop and think a little more before we post or speak…

    Sadly…why do I feel like this will all fall upon deaf ears…

  32. Thomas Wayne, STOP AND THINK yourself with your trolling psychoanlysis.

    On that note, closing this thread. Anyone who has further issue knows where to find me.

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