Shoji Kawamori is a man of many talents. He’s renowned as the creator of the Macross franchise, a long-running science fiction series about aerial dogfights, romance and pop music. He’s an experienced mechanical designer whose credits include Eureka Seven, Armored Core and Diaclone, a toy line that formed the foundation of the Transformers series. On top of all that, he has directed many weird and wonderful original anime including Earth Maiden Arjuna and Aquarion EVOL.
Anime NYC invited Comics Beat to an interview roundtable that included representatives from ESR Gaming Network, Manga Mavericks, Anime Herald, Anime Corner and All Ages of Geek. Each of us brought burning questions to Kawamori regarding his creative process. As expected, Kawamori rose to the occasion.
ESR GAMING NETWORK: Which Macross series was your favorite to work on?
SHOJI KAWAMORI: Each of them equally. I fall in love with them during storyboarding and through the production process.
COMICS BEAT: As the anime industry continues to expand, it becomes more important than ever to nurture new talent. What are you doing at this moment to assist the next generation of animators and directors?
KAWAMORI: I’m not the type to work hand in hand with any one person. My role is more teaching aspiring animators to come up with original concepts and ideas at technical schools. If I can inspire them to come up with new stories, I will have fulfilled my role.
MANGA MAVERICKS: What was the collaborative process developing Macross Plus with Keiko Nobumoto like? [Nobumoto is the acclaimed scriptwriter behind such works as Cowboy Bebop and Wolf’s Rain.]
KAWAMORI: In terms of Macross Plus, I came up with the main story and overall plotline. Then I handed it to Nobumoto to flesh out the characters more fully. She was particularly good at writing dialogue.
ANIME HERALD: In honor of your recent collaboration with Disney+, what is your favorite Disney movie?
KAWAMORI: Some of the early Disney movies really inspired me. In terms of recent Disney movies I would say Moana–particularly the first half.
ANIME CORNER: Looking back at the Macross franchise, what has allowed it to stay relevant for so long?
KAWAMORI: I was inspired by Space Battleship Yamato and Mobile Suit Gundam growing up. I wanted to create something completely unique from those works. I also wanted mecha that were more realistic and would function as battle machines. Rather than waging war with weapons, I would wage war with song.
ALL AGES OF GEEK: Did you ever imagine that some of your work would inspire franchises like Transformers?
KAWAMORI: I was so focused on my own anime that I didn’t think about how they would inspire other works. In terms of Transformers, I was working with Takara (now Takara Tomy) at the time. The idea of robots that transformed into other things had interested me for a very long time. What bothers me in retrospect were slight paradoxes in the design of the robots. Where would their cockpit or engine go? When I designed the Valkyries for Macross, I made sure each part of the robot would be accounted for after it transformed.
By the way, people say to me, “Macross is like Top Gun!” But no, Macross came first.
ESR: What inspires your work today?
KAWAMORI: I’m the type of person who likes to create original anime rather than adaptations. So I want to pull from things in the real world: actual science rather than science fiction, for instance. Otherwise, what I would produce would be fictional, a copy of a copy. I instead try to draw from reality. That said, I think that live action films are too close to anime, so I look further outward for inspiration.
CB: It’s been eight years since Macross Delta aired on Japanese television. Now it’s finally on its way to Disney+ in 2024. Do you have any words for Macross fans about to encounter the series for the first time? What should they keep an eye out for?
KAWAMORI: One thing I’d like fans to focus on is that I wrote and created Macross Delta with the concept of teamwork. The Delta group is a team, the villains are a team. I wanted to show humans and mecha collaborating with each other.
MM: How did you decide to collaborate with Shinichiro Watanabe for Macross Plus? What did your working relationship look like? [Watanabe’s other works include Cowboy Bebop and Space Dandy.]
KAWAMORI: As a member of the original Macross creative team, I handled the story and concept. I had Watanabe handle the daily life and battle sequences. Because I was working on Macross Plus and Macross 7, day to day interactions at the studio were handled by Watanabe. I handled the voice acting.
AH: We’ve gone from VHS to streaming. How has the industry changed as a result?
KAWAMORI: That’s a challenging question. It’s good that you can watch so much content anywhere around the world. Conversely, that’s led to an overall drop in concentration of the individual viewer. Fans focus on bits and pieces of anime–like the mecha in this work or the cute idol in another–rather than enjoying the diversity that exists.
AC: Did Sharon Apple set the precedent for VTubers?
KAWAMORI: I don’t know if Sharon directly influenced the development of VTubers. The one thing I can say with certainty is that back when I developed Macross Plus, my colleagues said, “no way is this gonna happen!” It came true faster than I anticipated.
AAoG: Your work covers big themes like spirituality and ecology. Were these themes important to you?
KAWAMORI: It wasn’t necessarily deliberate. But I’m the kind of person that wants to look inside and ask questions. The themes you mentioned are all things I want to know more about, too. Because of episode restrictions, I’ve sometimes been given the critique, “you’re trying to fit too much in!”
ESR: Have you played the video games that your mecha designs appear in? Which is your favorite?
KAWAMORI: I have so much work that I don’t have time to play games. This is just my own personality. I’m the type that likes to experience simulators. I love designing games, I just don’t have time to play them.
CB: Some of my favorite works of yours were made in collaboration with scriptwriter Mari Okada, like Aquarion Evol and AKB0048. How did you first meet, and is it possible that you might collaborate again one day in the future?
KAWAMORI: Someone introduced me to her when I was gathering staff for Aquarion EVOL. I was struck by what good sense she had when it came to depicting characters and their emotions.
I think there’s a possibility of us working, she’s just very busy. But I’d love to collaborate with her again if she had time. I think it would be very different from our last collaboration—even more unique.
MM: How did you collaborate with Yoko Kanno to produce the music for Macross Plus? [Kanno is one of the most acclaimed anime composers of all time; she’s responsible for Cowboy Bebop, Turn A Gundam and others.]
KAWAMORI: I’m honored to have worked with Yoko Kanno so many times. I am amazed by her versatility–she fits her music to each scene, and they are all diverse.
In terms of actual day to day work…it would be easier to give an example from the Aquarion series. I described to her the worldview and the characters. She would never just say “okay,” but ask, “okay, and then?” When I said to her that the enemy boss character in Aquarion has to go back 12,000 years to retrieve a love letter he displaced, Kanno said, “oh, that’s it!”
For Macross Frontier, I mentioned to her that it was set in an academy in space; once the lead characters were separated, they might never see each other again. She was satisfied after that.
AH: 45 years later, do you still remember love?
KAWAMORI: I think I’m still seeking love. That’s a very challenging question.
ESR: What advice do you have for aspiring animators and designers?
KAWAMORI: First and foremost, come ask me how to develop original concepts. Whatever genre the creator wants to go into, they need to decide what they want to accomplish: original series or adaptations. It may be that they want to do both, but they need to think about what their goals are.
CB: The world has continued to change since Earth Maiden Arjuna was released in 2001. Do you think that people have come any closer to understanding each other since then?
KAWAMORI: At the time Arjuna aired, most people thought it would never happen. Yet it feels as if the world has progressed towards what we saw in the series. While people are seeking to understand each other better these days, I think we rely on devices too much versus face to face.
I’ve made this a theme of my exhibit for Osaka 2025. There’s a lot of dialogue around human to human communication. But when it comes to other species, like animals, there is much less.
MM: What are your thoughts on AI media? What questions did you seek to ask about AI in Macross Plus and Last Hope?
KAWAMORI: At the time I created Macross Plus, I never thought AI would develop so quickly. Back then, we thought AI would replace humans in just simple tasks. I didn’t predict the same would happen in creative fields. The evolution of AI has also led to certain questions: what is life? What is AI?
The types of answers AI gives are becoming more human-like, but they lack emotion. I think it will still take time for AI to develop even to that point. What interests me is the amount of data necessary for AI (and other living beings) to progress.
AH: Can you tell us about your more recent collaborations with Sunrise?
KAWAMORI: I’ve been involved with Sunrise since the very start of my career: Escaflowne, Cyber Formula, etc. I appreciate that they create original anime, not just adaptations. I wouldn’t say it’s my home, but I owe a lot to them. It comes out in my work.
