In DEPROG (pronounced “dee-prawg”), written by Tina Horn, illustrated by Lisa Sterle, colored by Gab Contreras, lettered & designed by Apparatus Revolution and with covers by Dani, readers will be introduced to dyke detective Tate Debs as she investigates a cult that plunges some surprising depths of depravity.
Today, on September 24, 2024, the trade paperback collection of DEPROG is available at your local comic shop. The Beat caught up with Horn and Sterle over Zoom to learn more about what went into putting this heavily noir-influenced story of kink, cults and detective work together.
This interview has been edited for clarity and length.
AVERY KAPLAN: What was the origin of DEPROG? How did you both come to be involved in the project?
LISA STERLE: I’d gotten the pitch from Steve and from Dead Sky, asking if I was interested in doing just the one page pitch about this cult story with a noir bent to it.
But long story short, the pitch sounded fascinating, because it was. I hadn’t done a cult story yet. I’ve always been fascinated with them. And so and I also hadn’t done anything that was a little bit on the sexier side ever in my comics career. I feel like my comics career thus far had been PG-13.
I read the pitch was immediately super interested. It really seemed like an exciting new challenge for me to do something outside of what I’d done before. Even just with the noir genre, and with the opportunity to do more action. I told Steve I definitely want to hear more.
And then Tina and I hooked up. We got on a phone call together and talked about what our process is like, and how we like to work, because Tina hadn’t written it yet. And Tina talked a lot about your inspirations and what her conceptions of the story. And I throw in some of the things that I thought of when I was reading the pitch.
From there, it all came together. Tina wrote the scripts, and I helped build like some visual boards and inspiration there. That’s at least my side of it. I can’t speak for you, Tina, as to where the the beginning of the idea came from, but that’s that’s where I came in.
TINA HORN: I love what you were saying about how everything that you had done was more or less young adult or PG-13. I remember you posting somewhere on social media when you were drawing some of the first pages that your comics career had entered its slut era.
STERLE: Absolutely. I was very excited for that prospect.
HORN: There’s a few things I want to say about the about my perspective on the origin story of DEPROG. One is that my parents met in a cult. I wasn’t raised in a cult, they had left by the time I was born. In fact, there’s some versions of the of the story where they left because they were pregnant with me and they were supposed to be celibate.
But I didn’t know that until I was 25 and one of my parents sprung it on me in therapy. So I’ve coped with that by being obsessed with cults. I’ve written nonfiction about cults. But because I’ve been so obsessed, I felt like I have so much information rattling around my head about… one of the things that define the defines cults is that they’re often stranger than fiction, right? So not to say that it was a shortcut for writing genre fiction, but if I can take some of the sort of like psychological dynamics of what I understand to be true — and therefore like resonant with anybody — about cults, then that might make a great psychological crime thriller.
And, of course, so much about cults ultimately comes down to sex, and so much of my work also comes down to sex. Coincidence? I don’t remember when I came up with the idea of the butch dyke detective investigating cults, but it was two great tastes that taste great together.
Because I also have always been obsessed with Hard Boiled detective fiction. Raymond Chandler’s Philip Marlowe, and then in comics, the comparison of DEPROG to John Constantine/Hellblazer and even Alias/Jessica Jones is not just a lazy comparison, it’s very accurate. I love that shit. So it combined those two things.
That’s the origin of the story. And then from a more practical business perspective. The thing that is really exciting for me about DEPROG is that, what Steve Wands has been the letter for my other series, Safe Sex, or SFSX, which is at Image. He’s one of the only folks on that team that has been with Safe Sex since the beginning.
I’ve always loved working with Steve. So when he asked me to pitch him for his new imprint, I said, “Oh, I’ve had this idea for this dyke cult detective.” And he said, “Sounds great. Let’s do it.” Which is genuine work connections leading to stories you’ve always wanted to do. That’s the dream.
And then the other thing that was great about it is that, for a lot of reasons, I ended up being the solo creator of Safe Sex. And I really wanted to do a series where the main artist and I were co-creators from the beginning. I wanted to see what that experience was like. And I had admired Lisa’s work for so long.
Save Sex, I had to be a one-queer band and DIY so many things. So Steve asked me who I’d want to work with and I sent him a wish list. And Lisa was at the top of it. And then he got back to me, and he said, “I contacted Lisa, do you guys want to have a meeting?” And I said, “You contacted Lisa? I didn’t have to do so?” So that was, frankly, luxurious.
And we really vibed right away. The experience of being co-creators and designing it in tandem from the go has been so rewarding. I feel like it really shows in the book.
STERLE: I hope so too.
KAPLAN: Can you tell us about your collaborative process on this comic?
STERLE: YThe first phone call we had before the story was even written, we were just talking and sharing about movies and art comics. Things that we loved that tied into the themes and the vibe that we were going for. That’s where it started. Things like Twin Peaks or Paris, Texas or Hellblazer.
It’s funny because, as the artist, I’m thinking about how to create a unique visual world. And I remember we specifically had a conversation at the very beginning, before Tina had written anything. I asked, “When does the story take place? What decade? Is it modern? Is it in the 70s, when the heyday of cults first kind of bloomed?”
And I remember batting around ideas of it being set in an anachronistic decade. Maybe it’s modern, maybe it’s the 70s, maybe it’s this weird mix where we create our own world where fashion hasn’t moved forward entirely. I tried to incorporate some of those ideas in there. But it’s funny how those things… You do what you can. And this comic was only four issues. So I try and come to the table as many ideas as I possibly can incorporate. And I try to fit in as much as I can.
I remember we talked about fashion. We talked about the style of the characters and environments, colors, movie still scenes. My contribution on the collaborative side was definitely more like, “What’s your vision? How can I help to bring that into fruition?”
And as far as the plot goes, Tina was to the races and once she got started, she knew what she were doing. I was just there to help bring it to the page.
HORN: I’ll start by saying that it’s always refreshing when I get to work with artists who have a queer sensibility about bodies and style. A lot of those things are hills I’m going to die on in the visuals of comics.
But with Lisa there wasn’t any Hill to die on. Lisa’s character design was juicy and androgynous in interesting and innovative ways. Even when some artists say,
“Voluptuous and androgynous, got it.” But then there’s like maybe like one or two references that they have for that.
It’s not even necessarily drawing people the way that they actually look, because that’s not what I what I need. This is comics baby! I’m down with gender maximalism you know I’ve done with like the two genders being Tom of Finland leather daddy and Jessica Rabbit. That’s cool with me.
Yeah, new and interesting ways in new and interesting fashion. And then also in terms of cultural specifics. DEPROG is not about sexuality in the way that a lot of my other work is, but it’s sexy. And, you know, I can’t not have a sex party in the first issue.
But also, Lisa had a lot of your own ideas about what the sex party would look like, and what would be happening there, and what kinds of people would be there. And didn’t you also have a reference of a party called “Trauma” already?
STERLE: Yeah, it was such a funny coincidence, because the the name of the club in the comic is “Trauma.” And here in Columbus, Ohio — I don’t know if they still do it — but every year around Halloween, there was a big fetish dance/costume party that used to happen in this old church called The Bluestone.
There’ssuspension work and all kinds of different BDSM-inspired stuff. It’s just a wild crazy party. I guess it makes sense. It’s called “Trauma” for a reason. It’s a reference to the specific type of fetish. But, Tina described this place and this location, and I said, “Oh, I know where I can get some ideas for that to help me and guide where to go.
Actually, it’s that scene in particular, at the end of issue 1, I want to point to. Because I think it was a really great example of our collaboration. In that once you read the whole series, if you go back and you look through that scene and look at the background characters and the setting, you’ll notice little details that symbolically align with what happens in the rest of the book. And I think that scene in particular is a perfect marriage of both the visuals and the art symbols and the writing all coming together in a really fun way.
HORN: I’m so glad you brought that up. Because we had a lot of fun in the sex party. And then also in the other main setting of the series, which is that our detective Tate has an office in the back of a video store. And so that is lots and lots of opportunities for Easter eggs in what I hope is a way that is fun for fans of comics and film and television and literature; all different kinds of genre fiction.
It’s a little bit of foreshadowing of, what are some of the sinister things that are going on with the cults that we’re investigating? And what are some of the disturbing things about the past of some of the characters? That’s one of the beautiful things about comics and about, for me as a writer, collaborating with visual artists, is that you can come up with themes like that, and then come up with visual ways of expressing them. Or, find out through the artists that you’re collaborating with, what are visual and aesthetic ways to tease those things? And it just it like helps to take me out of my like overly wordy space, and appreciate the symbolism of aesthetics even more.
KAPLAN: Can you talk to us a bit about the role of kink in the story? Why was it important for this story to include that element?
HORN: A lot of my fiction and nonfiction work as a writer and in other mediums is about kink and BDSM and fetishism. The other new book that I have coming out this year is a literary nonfiction book called Why Are People Into That, which is based on the podcast that I’ve done a long time.
And as a theatrically inclined person and as a literary person and as a campy queer, one of the things that I find the most appealing about BDSM is that it is highly symbolic and that it is so ripe for allegory and metaphor. And so, the idea that a character could be processing their trauma through kink, which is often seen as like a pathologized thing to do… Or, we often see it represented in a pathological way that is an expression that this person is sick or lost. And I like the idea of a highly traumatized person healing through BDSM. And not just the practice of BDSM, but also the community and culture.
And that’s just a part of what you’re learning about their character. It’s not a sinister secret. But then also, it’s a convenient way to make the story sexy. Also, I don’t know how to write a queer character that isn’t into leather. Actually, you can scratch everything else, and just put that. I don’t know how.
But it seems to be working. So I’m not going to try too hard to figure it out. It just means sexy outfits and surprising readers and it’s a fun way to shock them. And then of course, it goes back to the idea of the Trauma party. I think we’re kind of having our cake and eating it too with the trendiness of trauma as allegory. Because this whole idea of elevated horror inventing the idea as trauma as a metaphor or the wonderful Jamie Lee Curtis joke. That’s what horror has always been. Gothic literature has always been that, horror movies have always been that.
So I think a certain amount of pop culture awareness is always fun in working in as pop-y of medium as comics are. And I say that in a good way.
I also think that Lisa and I had a lot of fun with wearing our pop culture references on our sleeve. There are some references to movies about cults, and detective fiction and various other things throughout. I hope that it signals to people that who are fans of this genre that we’re fans of this genre, too.
What was it like for you to draw all this kinky gay sex?
STERLE: It was a lot of fun. Honestly, it was kind ofa nice little escape at the time, drawing that comic because I had just given birth. And when I was working on this comic, I was very much in the new Mommy role of not feeling very sexy and taking care of a newborn and exhausted all the time. And I think sex was kind of the farthest thing from my mind before I started working on DEPROG again.
So on a personal note, it was kind of nice to step out of that space for a little bit, take a little break from being a caretaker, a maternal figure and just draw some fun, kinky sex and have my own little time with it. And I was honestly a little intimidated at first.
I remember talking to you during our first phone call or two about it and saying, “Hey, I haven’t professionally drawn a lot of this stuff. This is new for me to draw, professionally at least. So, any advice or any tips on how to make it sexier, if it’s not working for you, for whatever reason. If you need to redraw this scene, because it’s either incorrect, as far as the specific fetish goes.” But, you seemed pretty happy with what I came up with.
HORN: You did an amazing job.
STERLE: And I had so much fun drawing them. And I definitely think it will not be my last foray into… I definitely think I’ve entered my my slut era as far as comics go. And I will definitely be looking forward to making more.
And also working with Tina, and being on a team and in a project where I felt so uninhibited in what I did get to draw and bring to the table. It was a great experience all round.
HORN: I’m so happy about that. You knew what you were doing.
STERLE: Well, I’m glad to get the vote of confidence. I said before that not even just the sexy aspects, but a detective thriller with intrigue, action. This whole comic was a lot of new territory for me. So it was really creatively fulfilling, every aspect.
HORN: It new territory for me, too. My last comic, Safe Sex, which is still ongoing, is very much science fiction. And DEPROG has some mystical elements to it, but is grounded in the real world.
Part of what attracts me to the genre of detective fiction and noir is that it tends to be so hyper stylized. And when things are maximalist or camp or hyper stylized, or have some sort of supernatural allegory going on? I tend to find them more real than realism in the things that matter, like human emotions and dynamic relationships, and the sort of universal themes that matter to us.
But this was new to me too. And I definitely had to like develop an ear for snappy dialogue that is a little bit like dirty talk. The way that people talk to each other in noir is very double entendre based. That’s what I drew from.
And also, something that I did during the height years, the most isolating years of the COVID 19 pandemic, was listen to a lot of podcasts about movies. Or a lot of movies podcasts, sometimes even about movies that I hadn’t even seen. And I think that you can see that influence in DEPROG.
Listening to all of those movie podcasts was a very efficient way to determine, “This is what people remember about this movie.” Or, “Oh, I forgot that this character has this famous line.” And I think that soaking in the soup of all of that was very influential as well.
KAPLAN: Is there anything else you’d like me to include?
HORN: I love that people are excited about stories about queer people, by queer people. And stories about women, by women. And also, I want people to be excited about it, because it’s hella good. And I want people who are fans of the style of the art team and people who are fans of noir and crime… And things get gorier, and things get more surreal, things get more mystical as the book goes on.
So, you know, I don’t want people to say, “Ugh, I’m not gonna read this just because it’s the right thing to do.” Even know it is, it’s the right thing to do to read this comic, and to read comics with queer protagonists. But also,there’s a lot to it. It’s not just tokenizing. Or we strived to make it that way, anyway.
STERLE: I’ll also say, that cults similar to the one in DEPROG, in the 70s and maybe 60s was when they kind of started becoming more mainstream. And I think we’re in a strange era now of every other day, I see any I see new true crime show about some cult that I never heard of. I think that this kind of story and just something in our culture right now, our isolation or increasing isolation; our need to belong and desire to be accepted by sometimes very nefarious people… I think it’s a really interesting topic right now, that’s really important to explore and delve into.
And not even just with cults; organized religion too. I didn’t have a cult history, but I was raised Catholic. And the idea of deprogramming itself is super important. And we’ve all probably experienced one form of brainwashing in one way or another, as we have lived through our lives. And just to be aware, and watch out for each other.
So I just hope that this story is one in which people can relate to through their own experiences, whether it’s with a specific cult or not, or just with those very basic, but real feelings that come from the desire to belong.
HORN: Even just the cult of the nuclear family.
STERLE: That too.
HORN: Thank you for saying that. I think that is really true. And that the way that we landed on a hyper stylized world that is a little bit out of time also speaks to the fact that the things that makes that make people join cults are very deep embedded in human nature.
STERLE: Cults have always been around, is we’re getting at. They just change their form and their tactics sometimes.
HORN: And this cult, the DEPROG #1 through 4 cult, is fucked up.
STERLE: You’ll find out if you read the series.
The trade paperback collection of DEPROG #1 through 4 is available beginning today, September 24, 2024, at your bookstore and/or public library.
