Especially since you added “perhaps,” that’s a good point.

“At the very least, the guy’s judgement is so bad, you really DO have to question his competency as a teacher…at worst, who knows. As a father, my ‘radar’ for creepy sexual advances would definitely be set off by something like this.”

As someone who has been a teen girl, my “radar” for creepy sexual advances would definitely be set off if one of my teachers gave me – gave just me, and nobody else in the class – sexually explicit media to study.

“…A male authority figure handing a 13 year old girl material with implied rape and ‘peeping tom’ harassing behavior towards a naked woman, depicted in ironic, humorous terms… that can be quite the mixed message to a young girl.

“It can imply abusive, sexually motivated behavior is acceptable, intellectual and friendly. Really the wrong message.

“I am a fan of Clowes and of comix. Getting the real, detailed information from the girl’s mother puts much of this case in clear perspective…”

Exactly!

“‘How did the book make you feel’ is an extremely standard question in literature classes.”

If it’s asked *in the actual literature class*, it’s no problem and very standard. If only one student is singled out to read the book and singled out to be asked that question *alone, after class, after school*, *then* it’s a problem and it’s not standard.

“People are going so far as to say that a male teacher can’t even talk to a female student after class.”

If he’s just talking to her after class about the stuff *covered in class*, it’s no problem. If he’s going to single her out to assign her *more sexually explicit stuff than he assigns to the rest of the class*, *then* it’s a problem.

“There is no excuse for being alone with a student and giving them and only them adult material that the administration has not approved…”

Yes – it’s nothing like assigning the entire class a book and discussing it in a group.

“This has nothing to do with the content of the assignment. This has to do with how it was given to this girl. If you walk into a bank with a gun drawn, you are going to be charged with bank robbery, simple as that. No one cares if you were walking in to the bank, saw a gun lying on the ground, picked it up, and walked into the bank to turn it in. It’s all about preventing crimes, not punishing criminals.

“To bad if Nate Fisher had no intent. If he did, hurray for another sick individual removed from the classroom. If he didn’t, hurry for an incredibly stupid teacher being taken out of the school system who can’t realize that handing a young student adult material after class alone without the administrations knowledge is a pre courser to many other crimes.”

…and if he’s got some kind of disability that means he can’t ever learn enough social skills to realize that *treating other people this way* looks suspicious, then he belongs in some other job instead of a job that gives him authority over other people.

“Wow… so you guys both live in Connecticut, you know the teacher, and you’re sure that he wasn’t introducing her to this comic as some sort…of inappropriate advance?

“Or are you making accusations on what you *wish* to be the truth of the case?”

Good questions!

“so either these parents ARE reactionary, bypassed their daughter, and freaked out about nothing bigger than a english teacher who probably was cool and probably was just trying to get a student actually INTERESTED in literature, or, the girl thought that it was possible that the teacher WAS coming on to her, and didn’t stop this chain of events.. in which case, it probably was justified.

“because when I was 14, I was old enough to understand when someone was coming on to me. it’s not like she’s 8, she’s a teenager and a rational human being.”

More good points.

“Look, at my 2nd grade (7-8 years old) I stumbled onto real pornographic comic, with full explicit detailed scenes of penetration, blow jobs etc., and I showed it to all my friends in class and we had a great time laughing at it.”

See, a teacher didn’t single you out to assign you, and not the rest of your class, that stuff and then ask you to stay after class to talk about how it made you feel…

Years later, when I had moved to the school library, I had a parent come storming in to tell me the book his son was reading was filth and he threw it on the desk. I asked him to explain his concerns, but he refused snd left. The book? “Drums Along the Mohawk” published in 1936. I read that book three times, trying to figure out his objection, but could find nothing other than outdated prose.

It’s not the story that makes me doubt my future carreer in teaching, it’s the comments of the people who are judging the profession from a distance, jumping to conclusions.

Dear old mom manages to make herself look like a pristine picture of motherhood. Oh how reasonable she is, how correct she moves. Meanwhile we all ignore the fact that the deluded crone makes no mistake in pointing a bony white finger at this teacher and insinuating, if not downright telling us, that he’s a pedophile.
Not only that, but she manages to do the same to damn near every other teacher out there. Because so many predators are lurking in the shadows, and apparantly the best place to find those shadows to hide are in front of a classroom. Or so Danielle has us believe.

Maybe our overly protective mother should have a good look at her husband, who seems to be up in arms about this. Me thinks he doth protest too much. After all, isn’t it true that most cases of abuse and rape occur within a family?

But who cares right, it’s easier to just point a finger at teachers.

People are going so far as to say that a male teacher can’t even talk to a female student after class. This paranoid attitude sends out very clear signals to male teachers across the globe that they’re by default guilty creatures with a perverted agenda, and that in such cases they are always to blame.

I reckon Fisher resigned, not because of a guilty conscience, not because he has something to hide, but because he knows that once the case takes a certain turn, one that flatulent father has insisted upon taking, he will never ever be able to live a normal life. Because even when innocent, you are never able to live down the accusation of improper behaviour with a student, a minor.

That’s an accusation that one will never live down, something that will haunt a man for the rest of his life. This mother has just given her daughter all the reasons to jump to that conclusion, because it’s not a defense, it’s an attack. A last resort to get your way.

If I can’t survive this ordeal the way I had initially intended to walk from this, if I’m made into a perpetrator instead of flawless victim, I’ll always be able to cry rape, because nobody will ever question a young girl who cries rape, especially not if she calls her teacher a rapist.

Mommy and daddy have made it clear in their replies to the media that they’re already steering towards that conclusion.

Drat. I knew I should have paid more attention in high school.

I am really very impressed with your insights as to preventing crime. You sound like you’re either a law enforcement person or someone who works closely with teens and has an real empathy for their development.

I’m sorry, but if the law enforcement agencies of this country took your views, we would have be in incredibly bad shape. It is so childish and unrealistic to believe that because there is no hard proof of intent, that that intent is not there. We safeguard against the possibility of wrongdoing. Everywhere in society we do that. We can’t bring pocket knives on planes. Why? Because people in the past have used those knives to kill passengers or hijack planes. Does that mean that everyone with a pocket knife is a threat. Of course not. But we aren’t going to take that chance. This principle can be applied to almost any crime prevention tactic. Teachers can’t single out students and give them mature reading assignments without the administrations knowledge. Why? Because, in the past, these actions have led to inappropriate teacher/student relationships.

I’m sorry if you have a fundamental disagreement with this concept Markus. It may not be fair, but it is the only way we can safeguard our students and prevent crimes from being committed. If, as a teacher, you take it upon yourself to do something without the administrations knowledge, involving a behavior that is a pre-courser to inappropriate behavior, then expect to loose your job.

You can use scientific fact all you want, but police and law enforcement use something called “case study” to determine crime prevention. And case study clearly illustrates that inappropriate relationships between teachers and students leads to crimes being committed.

Is there somewher I can reference the case study you refer to?

http://www.fairfieldweekly.com/article.cfm?aid=3252

Behind the Eightball
Guilford teacher place on administrative leave for giving an “inappropriate” comic book to a student
By Christopher Arnott

It’s not that Clowes’ work doesn’t deal with adult themes; in 29 interlocking vignettes, Eightball #22 tells tales of abduction, desperate young love, carnal and violent instincts, depression, loneliness, paranoia, and unlikely career goals. The 40-page story ends somewhat hopefully but documents numerous harrowing life journeys.

Vhttp://www.fairfieldweekly.com/article.cfm?aid=3287

Booked: Barely Legal Lit
Five books that faced more than an irate house frau
By Nick Keppler

The American Library Association has deemed this week “Banned Book Week,” although the ALA uses the word “challenged” more often than “banned” (as if these titles needed a little extra time to get up the stairs). The group defines a challenge as “a formal, written complaint, filed with a library or school, requesting that materials be removed because of content or appropriateness.”

I know several people from my school / class who started to have sex in 6th / 7th grade (~12-13 years old), and many many who started in 8th grade (14 years old).

I’m not saying IT SHOULD be that way, just getting the facts strait – your children are not living in some kind of bubble (even if you made it a full time job to keep them in such bubble). They masturbate, watch porn in pre-teen years, have sex, experiment with drugs etc etc.

I would maybe understand this situation if the comic in question was for example Milo Manara’s work, but Ice Haven? You can turn it upside down as much as you like, but that comic just isn’t pornographic.

The only thing which can be debated is this: is Eightball 22 really appropriate for 14 year old girl, but not because of its explicit content / pornography (there isn’t any in that book), but because of the various intellectual and sociological concepts in that book. And that’s definitely not reason for loosing a job. In worst case she would miss some points from this book, couldn’t grasp some concepts, miss the irony etc. (and even that is questionable – it really depends how advanced student is).

There are much worse (mainstream) comics which do far more damage to one’s psychological health, which parents buy to their 9-10 years old sons / daughters without a second thought about it.

IMHO this is just another instance of pedophile / terrorism / whatever hysteria.

And I also agree that this hysteria did much more damage to psychological welfare to that girl than would reading of ANY comic book. I just can’t understand why this issue couldn’t end with: “Look, I don’t think this book is appropriate for my little girl to read, please give her something else, and in the future let me know in advance if you plan to give some book which isn’t on the list etc.”. Any “normal” parent would act like that.

As for me, I’d hug I guy who’d give Clowes’ comic to my teen child (although mychildren would probably already find it and read it in our home library…).

“And to everyone of you who is attaching Danielle and her husband, you should all be ashamed of yourself. She doesn’t owe any of you a explanation as to why she acted how she did. You people make me sick.”

when I was in high school, I was a huge english geek, and me and my english teacher got along great. I would hang back after class, we would talk about books, he’d give me stuff to read that he thought I’d like, I’d tell him what I thought about it when I was done.

Through the course of us having this friendship, a few books with what these parents would think was “over the line” were definitely recommended and read. Now, if my mom had happened along something like the comic in question (which, by the way, I AM a fan of.) she would’ve been mildly pissed too, but there is no way it would have gotten past me, to the police. I would have had a conversation with my mom about it, where it came from, etc.

so either these parents ARE reactionary, bypassed their daughter, and freaked out about nothing bigger than a english teacher who probably was cool and probably was just trying to get a student actually INTERESTED in literature, or, the girl thought that it was possible that the teacher WAS coming on to her, and didn’t stop this chain of events.. in which case, it probably was justified.

because when I was 14, I was old enough to understand when someone was coming on to me. it’s not like she’s 8, she’s a teenager and a rational human being.

sorry for the super late joining of the conversation after it’s somewhat been closed. :)

Hell, I just like seeing the comment number move up.

1. The first assumption is that works of art and/or literature possess some sort of mystical power. By believing in the need to “protect” people of whatever age from a work, one attributes to that work a certain kind of unidirectional (tyrannical or imperial) power that imposes itself upon the reader – who in this model of reading is reduced to the role of passive witness-victim to the work.

There is a strange combination of neo-Freudian ideas and religious fundamentalism at work here. Reverence of the Word as unassailable (uninterpretable) divine revelation is here somehow partially transposed onto all written words. Books are then conceived of as messages from their makers that one must either accept or reject. An element of Manicheanism enters here, because written words, while retaining the power of the Word, do not necessarily retain its moral orientation. There become Good Words and Bad Words, and one must be extremely careful to distinguish between the two, accepting the former while shielding one’s eyes from the latter.

And why must one be so careful? Here’s where the neo-Freudian element comes in. The Bad Words are usually distinguished as such through their presentation of sex and violence. In Freudianism, pathologies (which can persist an entire lifetime!) are theorized as originating in one moment: the traumatic witness of the primal scene (the ignorant child – in the role of witness-victim – stumbles across his parents having sex, unable to properly distinguish if the act is violent or pleasurable). The primal scene taints the child’s subjectivity, warping her psyche in some mysterious way. For the Freudians, one main function of the work of art is to re-enact or work through the primal scene. But it’s safe, because it’s just a work of art, not the real thing. But for those who transpose the power of the Word onto all written words (including Bad Words), the Bad Words somehow pose the same threat as the actual primal scene (which only poses a threat to modern mystics (Freudians) in the first place).

Very weird, and this weird, confused, mystical idea of what art and literature are and what reading is throws the hermeneutic operation entirely out the window, denying human intelligence its interpretive, critical faculties, denying Gadamer’s simple and intuitive notion of the meeting of and negotiation between historical-contextual horizons of understanding (the individual reader has one, and so does the work, and they’re always different unless the reader wrote the work himself). Here the act of reading is an act of communication in which the reader’s understanding changes the work just as much as the work changes the reader’s understanding.

2. Which leads me to the second assumption, which is more of a fear, which is the parents’ fear that their “value system” is extremely fragile (which it necessarily is, value systems being contingent and arbitrary). As Devlin Thompson admirably pointed out, parents and kids (and teachers!) need to “TALK ABOUT STUFF,” about different points of view and how they relate to one’s own. But the assumption on the part of litigious parents seems to be that the hold that their value system has on their child is so tenuous that the slightest exposure to “outside” viewpoints simply cannot be withstood. They hunker down into a defensive position, and in the spirit of “the best defense is a good offense,” they go to the police.

It bears repeating: why go to the police at all? Putting aside the false specter of rampant-and-increasing pedophilia running amok in Bill O’Reilly’s America, this act is revealed as the hysterical defense that it is: an excessive action on behalf of a value system as a substitute for the verbal articulation/affirmation of that value system required at a time of crisis. Why can’t the parents fully explain what exactly it is that this “borderline pornography” might threaten? One answer I can think of is that they themselves perceive their value system to be untenable. Another answer is that they have never actually defined a system of values for themselves, but instead cling – like many of us – to a vague muddle of Judeo-Christian traditions.

At any rate it betrays the assumption that morality – whatever it is – is something to be policed, not worked through and discussed. It seems there was a great, missed opportunity here for these parents and their daughter (and maybe even the “offending” teacher) to articulate what their value system actually is, using the work and their reactions to it as a reference point for articulating their values in a new and relevant way. Now, as things unfolded, “values” in the context of what was defended by these parents and the “pro-parent” voice in this discussion has become an empty signifier – a solid, dutifully guarded wall surrounding something or nothing, who can know?

On a final note, it is sad that the most interesting topic of this discussion was consumed in the fires of such an entrenched comment-board flame war. This story clearly implies a persistent bias against comics as an art form in its own right, a bias that the prevalent “comics are art too!” boosterism somehow seems to inflame… Here’s a tragedy we all as comics proponents could have profited from considering in more depth. Eric Reynolds was certainly on the right track by pointing out the inconsistency of deeming Eightball 22 inappropriate while Bukowski is on the official reading list…unfortunately it seems like his posts were mostly either shot down or ignored. Not by me, but I’ve already written more than I’m sure anyone will bother to read.

http://www.fantagraphics.com/blog/2007_09_23_fantagraphics_archive.html#7548833639633914978