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	<title>Comments on: Ellison/Groth: The love is still strong</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/</link>
	<description>The News Blog of Comics Culture</description>
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		<title>By: Edward Champion&#8217;s Return of the Reluctant &#187; Roundup</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22533</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Champion&#8217;s Return of the Reluctant &#187; Roundup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22533</guid>
		<description>[...] Christ, you two, get a room. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Christ, you two, get a room. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Reynolds</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22532</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Reynolds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22532</guid>
		<description>&quot;Are you seriously saying the opening words AREN’T referring to Ellison, Eric?&quot;

No, just making a point that when it comes to the law rarely is anything as black-and-white as most message board posters would have you believe. Although I don&#039;t believe there&#039;s anything inherently ad hominem in Gary&#039;s remarks (I tend to take the &quot;merely colorful&quot; position you stated).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Are you seriously saying the opening words AREN’T referring to Ellison, Eric?&#8221;</p>
<p>No, just making a point that when it comes to the law rarely is anything as black-and-white as most message board posters would have you believe. Although I don&#8217;t believe there&#8217;s anything inherently ad hominem in Gary&#8217;s remarks (I tend to take the &#8220;merely colorful&#8221; position you stated).</p>
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		<title>By: Vinnie Bartilucci</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22531</link>
		<dc:creator>Vinnie Bartilucci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:24:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22531</guid>
		<description>One could easily argue that Groth threw a few little shots in what is supposed to be &quot;the last word&quot; on the subject, thus giving him the last volley in the fight, a position that few would want to be on the receiving end of.

&quot;This claim is not true&quot; is a fair response to a false statement.  &quot;This claim is not true, and here is evidence to back that up&quot; is a better one.  &quot;This claim is not true, and he&#039;s a jerk for saying it&quot; is a poorer one, and far more likely to engender a response.

Of course, one could also imagine Harlan refusing to publish any response, claiming that any small part of the rebuttal was too confrontational and fell under the Ad Hominem clause of the agreement.

Seems to me that the more confrontational the rebuttal was, the more likely that Harlan would/could have refused to publish it.  But this scenario serves only to give both sides the chance to point at the other and say &quot;He won&#039;t stop!&quot;

I have this image of two egos locked in eternal struggle, like the positive and anti-matter versions of Lazarus from Star Trek.   Battling on into infinity, long after they (or anyone) can remember why they do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One could easily argue that Groth threw a few little shots in what is supposed to be &#8220;the last word&#8221; on the subject, thus giving him the last volley in the fight, a position that few would want to be on the receiving end of.</p>
<p>&#8220;This claim is not true&#8221; is a fair response to a false statement.  &#8220;This claim is not true, and here is evidence to back that up&#8221; is a better one.  &#8220;This claim is not true, and he&#8217;s a jerk for saying it&#8221; is a poorer one, and far more likely to engender a response.</p>
<p>Of course, one could also imagine Harlan refusing to publish any response, claiming that any small part of the rebuttal was too confrontational and fell under the Ad Hominem clause of the agreement.</p>
<p>Seems to me that the more confrontational the rebuttal was, the more likely that Harlan would/could have refused to publish it.  But this scenario serves only to give both sides the chance to point at the other and say &#8220;He won&#8217;t stop!&#8221;</p>
<p>I have this image of two egos locked in eternal struggle, like the positive and anti-matter versions of Lazarus from Star Trek.   Battling on into infinity, long after they (or anyone) can remember why they do so.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Vision</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22530</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Vision</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 17:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22530</guid>
		<description>Does this mean that there won&#039;t be another Dangerous Visions?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does this mean that there won&#8217;t be another Dangerous Visions?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22529</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 08:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22529</guid>
		<description>Are you seriously saying the opening words AREN&#039;T referring to Ellison, Eric?  I mean, if you want to argue that the statement as a whole doesn&#039;t cross the line into ad hominem attack, then fair enough - I think a case can be made that it&#039;s merely colourful.  And I have some sympathy for the view that statement 3 can&#039;t really BE &quot;rebutted&quot; in a strict sense.

But surely you don&#039;t seriously expect anyone to believe that the opening sentence is a reference to anyone other than Harlan Ellison?  That&#039;s just silly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you seriously saying the opening words AREN&#8217;T referring to Ellison, Eric?  I mean, if you want to argue that the statement as a whole doesn&#8217;t cross the line into ad hominem attack, then fair enough &#8211; I think a case can be made that it&#8217;s merely colourful.  And I have some sympathy for the view that statement 3 can&#8217;t really BE &#8220;rebutted&#8221; in a strict sense.</p>
<p>But surely you don&#8217;t seriously expect anyone to believe that the opening sentence is a reference to anyone other than Harlan Ellison?  That&#8217;s just silly.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Moonlight</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22528</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Moonlight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 02:56:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22528</guid>
		<description>&quot;Christopher Moonlight has a good point. Do not defend yourself. Keep quiet if you want to get along.&quot;

Hmm, I&#039;m not sure how you got that from what I wrote before. That wasn&#039;t my point at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Christopher Moonlight has a good point. Do not defend yourself. Keep quiet if you want to get along.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hmm, I&#8217;m not sure how you got that from what I wrote before. That wasn&#8217;t my point at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Spurgeon</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22527</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Spurgeon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 02:12:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22527</guid>
		<description>To correct a side point, the thrust of the law right now says that TCJ has the right to re-publish the interviews if they do an archival reprinting of the magazine, as in page by page views. This would eliminate the hassle of checking with every contributor.

The thing that was stated in the TCJ thread as keeping them from doing such a DVD is the time demand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To correct a side point, the thrust of the law right now says that TCJ has the right to re-publish the interviews if they do an archival reprinting of the magazine, as in page by page views. This would eliminate the hassle of checking with every contributor.</p>
<p>The thing that was stated in the TCJ thread as keeping them from doing such a DVD is the time demand.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Reynolds</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22526</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Reynolds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 20:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22526</guid>
		<description>Arguably, insofar as Ellison wasn&#039;t named in the opening words, and the last paragraph was in response to the &quot;child molestor&quot; reference, which was fair game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arguably, insofar as Ellison wasn&#8217;t named in the opening words, and the last paragraph was in response to the &#8220;child molestor&#8221; reference, which was fair game.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22525</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 20:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22525</guid>
		<description>&quot;What’s ad hominem in Groth’s rebuttal?&quot;

Arguably, the opening words and most of the last paragraph.  They&#039;re attacks on Ellison, not rebuttals of the three statements.  And attacking the man rather than the argument is precisely what &quot;ad hominem&quot; means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What’s ad hominem in Groth’s rebuttal?&#8221;</p>
<p>Arguably, the opening words and most of the last paragraph.  They&#8217;re attacks on Ellison, not rebuttals of the three statements.  And attacking the man rather than the argument is precisely what &#8220;ad hominem&#8221; means.</p>
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		<title>By: Guest2</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22524</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 17:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22524</guid>
		<description>&quot;It’s funny how he sues Cameron, but didn’t think twice about lifting Robert Heinlein’s idea about solders working with super intelligent dogs (in Starship Troopers) and then just changing the dogs (in the Outer Limits) to cats. I’m not saying he didn’t do it well, but he didn’t do anything that James Cameron didn’t also do later, and maybe even a little bit better. But that’s just Ellison.&quot;

Same with the Starlost.  Ellison admitted it wasn&#039;t at all an original idea.

Simply put, there are no totally new stories. Everything builds or borrows on what came before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It’s funny how he sues Cameron, but didn’t think twice about lifting Robert Heinlein’s idea about solders working with super intelligent dogs (in Starship Troopers) and then just changing the dogs (in the Outer Limits) to cats. I’m not saying he didn’t do it well, but he didn’t do anything that James Cameron didn’t also do later, and maybe even a little bit better. But that’s just Ellison.&#8221;</p>
<p>Same with the Starlost.  Ellison admitted it wasn&#8217;t at all an original idea.</p>
<p>Simply put, there are no totally new stories. Everything builds or borrows on what came before.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Reynolds</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22523</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Reynolds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 17:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22523</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s ad hominem in Groth&#039;s rebuttal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s ad hominem in Groth&#8217;s rebuttal?</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Coil</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22522</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Coil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 15:17:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22522</guid>
		<description>Christopher Moonlight has a good point. Do not defend yourself. Keep quiet if you want to get along.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christopher Moonlight has a good point. Do not defend yourself. Keep quiet if you want to get along.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Paul O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22521</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 12:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22521</guid>
		<description>&quot;And good for you for identifying Groth’s violation of the “excessively snide verbiage” terms of the rebuttal agreement. &quot;

Well, there IS a &quot;no ad hominem attacks&quot; provision in clause 4, you know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And good for you for identifying Groth’s violation of the “excessively snide verbiage” terms of the rebuttal agreement. &#8221;</p>
<p>Well, there IS a &#8220;no ad hominem attacks&#8221; provision in clause 4, you know.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Moonlight</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22520</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Moonlight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 05:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22520</guid>
		<description>“Didn’t Harlan Ellison also sue James Cameron over The Terminator?”

It&#039;s funny how he sues Cameron, but didn&#039;t think twice about lifting Robert Heinlein&#039;s idea about solders working with super intelligent dogs (in Starship Troopers) and then just changing the dogs (in the Outer Limits) to cats. I&#039;m not saying he didn&#039;t do it well, but he didn&#039;t do anything that James Cameron didn&#039;t also do later, and maybe even a little bit better. But that&#039;s just Ellison. It seems that whatever he was at one time, he is now neither funny or relevant. He should have had faith in posterity, and quietly rested on his laurels. Instead, he&#039;s now known by many as a person who can&#039;t feel big without cutting others down to his stature, rather then for his better works on paper. Maybe a hundred years from now, readers will be able to enjoy his works again in their full light. As for now, it is impossible for them not to be sullied under a shadow cast by an ego bloated by self importance. Let it be a lesson to us all. The artist is irrelevant. It is only the art that matters. All this suing only serves to smite what little time we have on this earth, to make it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Didn’t Harlan Ellison also sue James Cameron over The Terminator?”</p>
<p>It&#8217;s funny how he sues Cameron, but didn&#8217;t think twice about lifting Robert Heinlein&#8217;s idea about solders working with super intelligent dogs (in Starship Troopers) and then just changing the dogs (in the Outer Limits) to cats. I&#8217;m not saying he didn&#8217;t do it well, but he didn&#8217;t do anything that James Cameron didn&#8217;t also do later, and maybe even a little bit better. But that&#8217;s just Ellison. It seems that whatever he was at one time, he is now neither funny or relevant. He should have had faith in posterity, and quietly rested on his laurels. Instead, he&#8217;s now known by many as a person who can&#8217;t feel big without cutting others down to his stature, rather then for his better works on paper. Maybe a hundred years from now, readers will be able to enjoy his works again in their full light. As for now, it is impossible for them not to be sullied under a shadow cast by an ego bloated by self importance. Let it be a lesson to us all. The artist is irrelevant. It is only the art that matters. All this suing only serves to smite what little time we have on this earth, to make it.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Coil</title>
		<link>http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22519</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Coil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 04:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.comicsbeat.com/2007/09/07/ellisongroth-the-love-is-still-strong/#comment-22519</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your reply, Eric.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your reply, Eric.</p>
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